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Dutch attitudes and behavior

294here
This is a serious question because the following issues in the United States are a big part of what is driving me out of the USA, and I need to know if The Netherlands will be any better.

Here are some facts about life in big cities in California now:

Shoplifting is rampant. Shoplifting in San Francisco became so bad that all the Walgreens stores in that city shut down and moved out of state. The problem is that new California law states that shoplifting is legal unless done repeatedly or the item is priced at over several hundred dollars, therefore homeless people began shoplifting extensively. I constantly see people shoplifting from convenience stores and clothing stores, and when I talked to a manager at one of those stores the manager told me that the store cannot do anything about it because it is legal, so the store does not worry about it, and just charges the insurance company for the losses.

Road rage is rampant. Even if you are driving at a legal speed, someone who feels that you are moving too slow for their taste will suddenly swerve in front of your vehicle, clearing it by only inches, then oftentimes their vehicle goes out of control due to hitting the dirt shoulder, whereupon their vehicle flips, hits a wall, or hits some other vehicle.

Racism is rampant. I have had rocks and bottles thrown at me, downtown and in a park, sometimes by children, sometimes by adults, just because I was of a different race. Very often in a downtown area I will pass someone who is shouting racist remarks while walking by themselves, or shouting into a cell phone about racism. I overheard someone in a homeless facility talking about how some friends he knew were raising their children to be racist, and that the children already hated the other race.

Lawbreaking is rampant. I cannot drive anywhere for more than 15 minutes without being guaranteed to see someone driving recklessly, like running a stop sign, making an illegal U-turn, changing lanes in an intersection, changing lanes illegally, or texting while driving. I cannot visit any public place without seeing someone smoking illegally, parking illegally, having their dog run free, having their dog defecate on the ground without cleaning it up, intentionally jaywalking dangerously so that they can sue any driver who hits them since they are poor and need the money, seeing someone selling drugs, shooting up heroin in plain view, urinating or defecating in plain view, stealing a bicycle, or passing a vehicle whose side window has been smashed with its glass all over the ground.

Police are useless. I overheard one police officer on duty talking to another one near a public beach, wondering why they were even working when they were forbidden to give anybody tickets as everybody walked by without a face mask during the COVID restrictions, or even parked illegally at that beach. I once called the police about a man slapping a woman on a public street, and the person answering my call just switched my call over, without saying anything, to a non-emergency number where nobody answered. I once called the police about a naked woman climbing a chain link fence downtown at night and they said they could not do anything about it. I once reported a racist incident where a man on the bus stood up and kicked me hard in the shin for no apparent reason, and the police warned me that if I had even so much as brushed the man when I walked by him, that would constitute felony assault and I would be the one who got arrested. One mass shooting at a high school was done by a teenager there who had multiple incidents where he was detained by police, but because he was of a minority race they let him free every time until he killed several people.

Homelessness is rampant. San Francisco, Los Angeles, and some parts of San Diego have so many homeless people that 'tent cities' of homeless people have sprung up, often spanning a half mile or so, along the sidewalks and even along the sides of the streets. It is dangerous to park in such areas because cars get burglarized, it is dangerous to walk down such streets because the homeless people often have vicious dogs, and trash and feces accumulate on those streets, especially in San Francisco. I once passed a parked car with a sign in its window saying that the guy living inside was homeless despite having a masters degree in computer science and having 5 years of experience in that field.

Relocation to another state in the United States will not help much, since other states are having riots combined with arson, and other states are so strict in other ways that I would just be exchanging one state's hysteria for another state's hysteria. That is not to mention pervasive corruption everywhere.

I have never been to Europe, but I have a hard time believing that all cities in the world are suffering these types of problems to such an extreme degree, especially from what I have read, especially about the law-abiding behavior of Scandinavians. Is Europe, especially The Netherlands, suffering from such problems, or are these conditions and attitudes unique to the United States?

See also

Living in the Netherlands: the °µÍø½ûÇø guideBuyers harassing us after sale of property.Rejection of facilitation VisaHow can I reach a Dutch sponsor?Delay in MVV Sticker Processing After IND Approval
Cynic
My own view is that all of the things you describe are not unique to the USA, they exist everywhere to varying levels.  What has changed in some US states is that race has become an excuse to ignore the law, to permit people to break the law because of some perceived outrage in the past of the perpetrator.

I can absolutely guarantee you that in my home state of Kentucky, according to the Americas Health Ranking , it is just over half the US national average and my experience is if somebody tried to remove something from one of my cousin's properties, you'd almost certainly get the business end of a 12-bore in your direction and the hound's teeth sunk into your rear-end.  Perhaps that's why crime is significantly lower around those parts.; there is less of an incentive to commit the crime.

If I then compare The USA to the European Countries I know well (UK, Holland and Germany); all those things you list exist there and are getting more of a problem.  I've just removed a whole paragraph I'd written here because it was so depressing.

My advice would be to look closer to home; to completely write off the whole USA because you don't like the politics is nonsense, you should speak out, join the groups opposing these idiots, so they know they are a minority and can't get away with crime.


gracesaribay
Hallo @294here,

If you are planning to move or already living in The Netherlands, I would say you did the right decision. All of your concerns are well addressed here. Netherland isn’t a perfect country but for foreigners like me who came from a country where people like me feels not safe anymore and wanted to find a country like netherlands where you can see the citizens abiding and respecting their laws. Maybe not everyone but majority of the people does.

Well, first, shoplifting could also happen here, but not rampant as you described in San Francisco. And it could possibly happen more in bigger cities like Amsterdam, Utrecht, Den Haag & Rotterdam. But big “winkelcentrums†in the Netherlands has always “handhaving†in the surroundings walking around. Enforcement are everywhere, they are always visible in the train stations, streets, parking lots etc. If there would be some shoplifting incidents it is most likely people who came from eastern part of Europe. 

Road rage? Maybe. But it’s not something that you encounter everyday and everywhere. Getting a driving license here will make you to be a responsible driver in the future. And once you have it, you’ll always keep in your mind how tough you’ve been through before you got it and that you don’t want to loose it because of road rage.I think every vehicle owners wouldn’t wish to be chased by the police nor receive a fine. Cameras are everywhere and sometimes you don't see them until you get a letter. People keeps their temper when there’s a traffic or under construction highways or the stoplights stays red for a long time. But you wouldn’t see someone getting out of their car screaming or smashing someone or something. 

Racism here is prohibited. Though some people are racist we sometimes cannot avoid them but it’s not something that people like me worried about everyday. Unlike in the USA, Americans threatens other races especially black and asians to the extent that they become physically and verbally abused.  All colors here are mixed. It doesn’t matter whether you're dark or light or brown..everyone is equal and treated fair I assumed.

Law is law. There are some lawbreakers here yes. But it’s not their hobby to break the law or make any violence out of nowhere. Driving recklessly is not allowed. You are not allowed to beep someone if its not necessary or because you saw someone you knew and you want to give a greet or someone overtakes you and you got annoyed. Stop signs means you are mandatory to stop. Zebra pad means you let pedestrians to pass first. 30km is not 50km. Texting while cycling is not also allowed. Drivers drives cautiously and pedestrians are also well disciplined when and where to cross. Some drivers who almost hit someone most of the time gets out of their car to make sure you are not hurt and apologized right away (based on my own experience for several times). You can park illegally but of course you’ll get a fine, it’s up to you. 
People don’t let their dogs walk outside the house…alone. The pet owners should always bring a plastic with them while walking their dogs and you can always find a poop bins anywhere where you can throw away their poops. But of course there’s always stubborn people who do not do that thing. Using weeds? well, i think globally knows that Netherlands legalized smoking of weeds.. you can see them sometimes in the station, streets, in a bar etc. 

Police authorities is not a problem here. They come quickly whenever you call them. They are alert, careful  and respectful to others. Though you can see that they are tough but as much as possible they avoid to engage rudeness towards others. You don’t see the arrogance on them. But maybe there are some. 

About the homelessness, you might see people sitting on the streets or beggars or people playing instruments..we’re not sure if they are homeless..government provides houses for people who are jobless or people who choose to be a jobless. I would say that these people are not neglected by the government but rather choose to live on the streets. It would be unfair to think and see that their own people are homeless and their needs are being ignored while the government can support and provides newly built homes for refugees. Government here do their best to accommodates people from other countries as much as they could. Give them their needs physiologically, financially and sometimes psychologically when needed. I’d say that my refugee neighbor lives in a bigger house than where I live knowing that we have the same size of family. Generally, you barely see homeless people, they act like a beggar because they choose to be a beggar the whole day and go back to their decent house when they want to go home.

I think one of the reason why The Netherlands is a way more peaceful country is because there’s a lot of things that are made legalized. It may not be that perfect but as someone from other country I could say there’s a huge difference how the authorities run their government strictly but fairly. I might not see all the flaws of this country but I am very much proud to say I was led to a best one. I’ve lived in France, short stayed in Italy, Switzerland, Germany & Belgium and they all have differences in every way. But the Netherlands is really the best I’ve known overall. 
mattharvey1

@294here I'd get the hell out of Dodge if I were you!   #sinkingship

294here
@mattharvey1
Thanks. I've known that for years.
My posts in this thread keep getting deleted. Maybe you didn't see all my earlier responses.
It's funny: One thread in this forum asked why people were trying to move to The Netherlands, maybe thinking that °µÍø½ûÇøs merely like tulips or old architecture. Nope. People don't spend years learning a foreign language and moving all their belongings half way around the world for trite reasons; they relocate because the problems in their home country are so severe that they feel their lives are literally in danger. I believe °µÍø½ûÇøs tend to be extremely angry about conditions in their home country, therefore to even discuss those conditions is to bring up extreme negativity, which evidently is too intense for some readers, which presumably results in posts getting deleted.
Cynic
@mattharvey1 I believe °µÍø½ûÇøs tend to be extremely angry about conditions in their home country, therefore to even discuss those conditions is to bring up extreme negativity, which evidently is too intense for some readers, which presumably results in posts getting deleted. - @294here
Hi again.

Our experience is that the vast majority of °µÍø½ûÇøs we see here are from the group "Looking for a better life"; we very rarely see a refugee, perhaps one who has found him/herself stuck (seems to be more common in our Italian/German forums), or finds themselves stuck behind a bureaucratic wall because whoever told them the grass was greener on the other side omitted to tell the whole story when they took their money off them.  That said, refugees do impinge on the group I mentioned because they tend to have taken up much of the social housing and low qualified work, so it comes up in the things people tell us "can't find affordable accommodation", or "nobody responds to my job application".

With regards to your posts being deleted.  Posts are only deleted if they contravene the Forum T&C's (link).  I can't recall deleting any of your posts, so somebody else must have reported something you said, but my advice would be to read the T&C's and if you still feel something untoward is going on, then DM me.

Hope this helps.

Cynic
°µÍø½ûÇø Team