暗网禁区

Most people who work or study overseas from their own country learn to speak the language in that country. So it should not be a problem for anyone working in Indonesia for a year to have picked up the language. I mean, who wouldn't want to learn the language?

What does it matter when getting a kitas is nearly impossible? Aku mau聽 kitas won't speed anything along no matter what language you use. More smoke and mirrors . I can't see the experts聽 building the new Jakarta Banding railway studying Indonesian anymore than a test will be put聽 together that can be measured or called useful.

But just in case,

Here are my typical questions I am asked during my work day (in English)

It's hot ya?
You take gojek?
What's your name?
Where you come from?
Are you married?
Where do do you live?
So far ya?
You like Indonesia?
Why you come here?
How long you come here for?
What do you think of Indonesia?
About Jakarta traffic?
You already take a LUNCH?
Have you eat yet?
Do you believe in ghosts?
Do you go to church?
You have children?
You wife bule or Indonesia?
Can I see a picture?
You drink coffee?
You like noodle?
You ride a bike?
Will you come聽 tomorrow?
You want to try some spicy chicken feet?
Why you always eat fried rice?
You like London?
Manchester聽 United good ya?
You miss your family?
How your age?
What you doing now?
You eat a dinner yet?
You sleeping yet?

I know the answers to all those in both bahasa Indonesian and English. So I am quite safe.

From the article:

"Although Ruwiyono did not delve into the specific level of proficiency, he gave assurances that there would be no government-issued proficiency tests and that companies that hired foreigners would be responsible for teaching the language and certifying their workers."

Just a bit of "face saving" on the part of the IMTA ministers is how I read this.聽 Nothing like "the fox guarding the hen house."聽 聽

rubah menjaga rumah ayam, as they might expect us to say.....

Probably government contracts such as the Jakarta - Bandung railway wouldn't require the experts to learn bahasa or they'd probably be exempt from having to learn since it would be a government contract and the government needs them.

Personally I think it is wrong to make a regulation for learning bahasa, but I believe most people should be able to speak some after a year here anyway so no big deal. For those 暗网禁区s running big companies who do not like to learn to speak bahasa and who do not like to go out and mingle with the locals they are missing out on a great experience.

Personally I avoided learning Bahasa Indonesia and Bahasa Bali for the first twelve or so years of living here on Bali for the simple reason that my Balinese wife and I both wanted our three sons to learn English very well.

If we all exclusively spoke Indonesian or Balinese around the house, as opposed to a mix of those two languages and English, I highly doubt that their English would have developed as well as it has.

The bottom line is simple, regardless of what some government officials think鈥�it is far better for an Indonesian to learn English than a foreigner to learn Indonesian, or the local Provincial language.聽

We are now into step four with our kids, which is Mandarin.聽 I鈥檓 taking a pass on that language!聽 聽

Ubudian wrote:

Personally I avoided learning Bahasa Indonesia and Bahasa Bali for the first twelve or so years of living here on Bali for the simple reason that my Balinese wife and I both wanted our three sons to learn English very well.

If we all exclusively spoke Indonesian or Balinese around the house, as opposed to a mix of those two languages and English, I highly doubt that their English would have developed as well as it has.

The bottom line is simple, regardless of what some government officials think鈥�it is far better for an Indonesian to learn English than a foreigner to learn Indonesian, or the local Provincial language.聽

We are now into step four with our kids, which is Mandarin.聽 I鈥檓 taking a pass on that language!聽 聽

I couldn't agree with you more about the importance for Indonesians to learn English. It is the way forward in today's world. Mandarin is a great choice too for a third or fourth language. But we will decide between Japanese and Mandarin when the time comes. Our own kids speak English around the house and at school but bahasa with their friends.

鈥淥ur own kids speak English around the house and at school but bahasa with their friends.鈥�

Bahasa apa?聽

I hope you don鈥檛 mind my 鈥減et peeve鈥� too much, but the word 鈥渂ahasa鈥� all by itself is truly meaningless, as all that word means is language.聽 Some may argue that 鈥渂ahasa鈥� automatically infers Indonesian, but in reality, it doesn鈥檛, as in all Provinces of Indonesia, the local languages鈥�Javanese, Balinese, Sundanese, Madurese, etc. etc. are very much alive and well, and most often it is the language spoken between individuals of the same indigenous cultural background.聽

There was a government move afoot some few years ago to eliminate the local indigenous languages from local school curriculums.聽 Needless to say, that idea, floated by some Jakarta 鈥渃ognoscenti鈥� was immediately shot down, and in fact a number of Provinces informed the central government that if such change was to occur, it would not be administered that way in their Province.

Schools in Indonesia are taught in bahasa Indonesia, but if you listen to the kids outside of Jakarta and other large cities speaking among themselves鈥�they are speaking in the bahasa of their locality.聽 Moreover, in many areas of Indonesia the older folks only know the local indigenous language, they having never learned bahasa Indonesia.聽

I say 鈥渢wo thumbs up鈥� for that and for the simple reason that while Indonesia prides itself on the phrase, 鈥淯nity in Diversity鈥� the fact remains that it is in fact the cultural diversity that most defines Indonesia, and language is an essential part of that diversity.聽

So, when you write, 鈥渂ahasa鈥� it鈥檚 always best to follow that word up with the specific language.

I'll let you guess that one Roy...聽

Guess on what one Hansson?聽 What am I to guess about?聽 聽

Oops...what is going on?

I think Hansson to be perfectly correct you should say "Bahasa Indonesia" as that would be more clear especially for those here who are not familiar with the Indonesian language and it's many regional dialects, if that is indeed the language that you meant.

If however you meant bahasa madurese, bahasa batak or bahasa padang or some other local dialect then I am sure you would have been more specific.

lukereg wrote:

What does it matter when getting a kitas is nearly impossible? Aku mau聽 kitas won't speed anything along no matter what language you use. More smoke and mirrors . I can't see the experts聽 building the new Jakarta Banding railway studying Indonesian anymore than a test will be put聽 together that can be measured or called useful.

But just in case,

Here are my typical questions I am asked during my work day (in English)

It's hot ya?
You take gojek?
What's your name?
Where you come from?
Are you married?.

Your assertion is very probably correct, but you did miss some of the questions likely to be asked of foreign men working in Indonesia. An example could be....

Pak mau makan ayam kampung or ayam kampus?

More seriously....
Indonesia is still developing, so still needs foreign workers to provide experience Indonesians don't yet have.
That means it's economically essential to have foreign workers in Indonesia, and those workers MUST have an easy ride in order for this lovely country to develop.
As time goes by, Indonesians will gain the experience and knowledge from the foreigners, eventually becoming independent in these skills, so no longer needing outside help.
That applies to specialist construction jobs just as much as native English speakers and Americans working in language schools.
I have an interest in Indonesia developing, not just because I love this country, but because I have two kids here who I want to see growing up in a country that gets better every day.
Nationalism (making Indonesia the best it can possibly be) is great, but the silly version where you exclude anyone but Indonesians, regardless of how much you need them, is less than attractive to me.

In my humble opinion, Ruwiyono's position on this matter is holding Indonesia back from the essential development it needs to improve as a country and, even worse, restrictive policies are depriving the Indonesian people of wealth and better lives.
I'm not suggesting anyone and everyone be allowed free access to work in Indonesia, but Indonesia should make it very easy for those foreigners who will be helpful to Indonesia, and/or those such as Luke and myself who are married to Indonesian, and have shown a long term commitment to this country,

Because I love and support Indonesia and Indonesians, I can't agree with this or anything else that hurts this wonderful country.

You are of course correct Jean. For the sake of everyone here I meant Bahasa Indonesia.

I suppose that because in our own household we just refer to Bahasa Indonesia as "bahasa", as opposed to English, then I assumed that everyone here understood what I meant, but obviously I was mistaken.

Roy I do apologise for being unclear about which bahasa I meant.

As an extra note.
I fully agree with and support foreigners learning Indonesian.
No one can enjoy a decent life in any country without knowing the local tongue, but we have to be realistic.
Much as it would be lovely for all who enter this country to speak the language, it isn't reasonable, and trying to enforce it will just make valuable knowledge to go to other countries, leaving Indonesia behind.

Hansson wrote:

You are of course correct Jean. For the sake of everyone here I meant Bahasa Indonesia.

I suppose that because in our own household we just refer to Bahasa Indonesia as "bahasa", as opposed to English, then I assumed that everyone here understood what I meant, but obviously I was mistaken.

Roy I do apologise for being unclear about which bahasa I meant.

Ner, we all know what you meant, but Roy is really pedantic on that issue.
We all get bees in our bonnet, and that's Roy's buzzy little friend.

Ouch!聽 Saintjean鈥� 鈥渄ialects!鈥�

The various indigenous languages of Indonesia are NOT dialects鈥�rather they are distinct and separate languages which very often have their own distinct and unique alphabets.聽

Bahasa Indonesia is nothing more than bahasa Malay, the trade language which was used all throughout this region of SE Asia for centuries.聽

The ONLY indigenous languages to Indonesia are the some 400 distinct local languages to be found amongst this vast archipelago.聽

Fred鈥︹�減edantic?鈥澛� You, being based in Jakarta might understandably think that way, but outside of the big durian鈥�that is not the thinking of the locals who cherish their languages just as much as they cherish a family kris or tulis batik handed down over many generations.

Ubudian wrote:

Bahasa Indonesia is nothing more than bahasa Malay, the trade language which was used all throughout this region of SE Asia for centuries.

That's going to be a popular post

Ubudian wrote:

Fred鈥︹�減edantic?鈥澛� You, being based in Jakarta might understandably think that way, but outside of the big durian鈥�that is not the thinking of the locals who cherish their languages just as much as they cherish a family kris or tulis batik handed down over many generations.

Saya kampungang dari Wonosobo.

Come on, admit it before I tickle you, bahasa is commonly used to mean the Indonesian language.
It is strictly wrong, but it is also in common usage.

鈥淭hat's going to be a popular post.鈥�

It鈥檚 the truth, and anyone educated in the languages of Indonesia will have no choice but to admit it.聽 Bahasa Melayu, also called 鈥淏azaar Malay鈥� is the language upon which bahasa Indonesia is based.聽 Moreover, that fact accounts for the reason why Malays visiting Indonesia get along fine (language wise) and visa versa鈥�Indonesians visiting Malaysia.聽 Some 80% of both languages (give or take) are identical.聽 聽 聽

May I recommend a very good book?

The title is 鈥淚lluminations, The Writing Traditions of Indonesia鈥� by Ann Kumar and John McGlynn.聽

鈥淚t is strictly wrong, but it is also in common usage.鈥�

Among some uneducated Indonesians, some foreign 暗网禁区s, and many residents of the 鈥渂ig durian鈥� perhaps.聽 But, the big durian is not representative of Indonesia as a whole, anymore than is New York City, London, or Paris to their respective countries.聽

It is irrefutably incorrect, grammar wise, to write, or to say anything along the lines of "I speak bahasa."聽 All that means, quite literally and with no mistake, is that "I speak language."聽 聽

I miss being asked about ayam kampung atau kampus (see what I did there?)
I guess the students I teach don't know such things and I am not allowed out to play anymore as my 2 year won't let me.

If I need to speak Indonesian to be able to stay here then I shall. Does it really matter? I am sure the government know exactly what they are doing and as a visitor it is only good manners to respect the owners rules of their house regardless of how you truly feel about them.

鈥淚 am sure the government know exactly what they are doing鈥︹��

Hopefully that is something you don鈥檛 voice very often among the Balinese when you are here.聽

Sorry Luke, but I just couldn鈥檛 resist injecting some bumbu pedas鈥�or 鈥渞eality spice.鈥澛� 聽

That being said, YES, it is incumbent on all foreigners to respect the process of growth, that growth being primarily from within as opposed to outside pressure or intervention,聽 and the sovereignty of any country where they may decide to pitch their tent.

lukereg wrote:

I miss being asked about ayam kampung atau kampus (see what I did there?)

If I need to speak Indonesian to be able to stay here then I shall. Does it really matter? I am sure the government know exactly what they are doing and as a visitor it is only good manners to respect the owners rules of their house regardless of how you truly feel about them.

Ah, the subtle messages that can only be expressed in English.
Good manners is generally the key, but opposing a rule that can only damage Indonesia is common sense.

"Good manners is generally the key, but opposing a rule that can only damage Indonesia is common sense."

Amen to that!聽 聽

Well, if these were the phrases needed just to pass the Bahasa qualifiers then I don't think it will help much "passing skills from foreigners to locals"..

I do not speak Bahasa Indonesia apart from 3 or 4 words. But I am incredibly patient and聽 good to the people I encounter especially if they have hard time understanding me...聽 so Thats good manners I guess

Sure, its good to learn new language, as its a part of the culture of a country, but most 暗网禁区s who come to work here like me only stays here less than 2 years. I dont mind learning the Bahasa Indonesia if Im going to stay here for a long period of time, but with just short stays, who find time learning another language?
The company I'm working at now is very big company and one of the objectives is to be Globally Competent, but most of my colleagues cant even perfected to count 1-100 in english. It gives me so much stress to deal with them business-wise but this is what i signed up for.
So in conclusion, since聽 more and more 暗网禁区s are coming here to work, then they should also learn english as the 暗网禁区s should learn Bahasa Indonesia.

I am not sure that many governments in other countries around the world require foreign workers to learn their language. So I think it is better if those workers make up their own minds about learning bahasa (indonesia) themselves rather than it being a requirement. And as someone has already said, it will be up to the employees company to ensure that they are taught the language. But the reality is that not everyone has the time or motivation to learn the language. Sometimes it is not practical for them to learn due to their work schedule. Nevertheless, since no level of competence has been confirmed nor is it likely to be, I am sure everyone will be able to "get by" after living here for one year.